Mike,
I just wanted to say thanks for being you. I've been reading your blog for a few months now, since the cinci convention. You probably won't remember me, but I met you a few years ago at the NYWC in Atlanta, up in Marko's suite. We only got to talk for about 10 minutes. I had attended your seminar that year or the year previous and that was the first time I remember hearing of you. (though, as a kid I may have heard one of those rock music seminars : ). Then I heard you again in Nashville. Somewhere along the way I picked up a cd of your "presence centered ym: youth minister as a spiritual guide" talk. This was before the book came out. I dug the cd out the other day and listened to it in my car over the past three days. It's been fun riding along with you. I'm encouraged and challenged by you.
Joe
Mike,
Picked up your book last night while I was at my favorite little downtown bookshop, Nomad. I decided to rearrange my reading list and make this next on my list. I'm on page 30 now and have already starred a few things in the margins. I'll do my usual book review posting when I am all done (not that I get a ton of traffic, but you never know...), and thought I would send you some more regular feedback - if that's cool.
Wanted to let you know this #1. because I agreed to interact with you about it. and #2. because I want you to know that I am serious about connecting with you. The direction I see you taking after 30 years of ministry is the direction I want to take after 10, and I realize I'll need some help along the way.
I'll send you another note after I can let these pages settle in a bit.
Peace,
joe
Mike,
I've been processing the first few chapters of your book over the last week or so. I've been pretty busy so I haven't had the free time to read as much as I wanted to, but in some ways I think that has helped me to simply chew on the portions I have read. I finished writing this and realized it was pretty long. I really don't want to be that annoying guy you don't really know. I worry about stuff like that. I really want to bring something to the table, something meaningful for you, and I'm not looking to be a "life sucker", like the kind of guy that badgers seminar presenters for hours after ys breakouts. Anyway, I say all that cuz I'm paranoid, and that's probably because I'm struggling to allow myself to emerge as someone who has something to say. Here are my thoughts.
The last two paragraphs of page 11 are huge for me. I am on a mission to reprioritize my life. So much time has been spent trying to create programs that I've neglected the most obvious thing (and really the most important) the wholeness of my own soul. I've spent hours trying to become a youth ministry expert instead of a spiritual guide. Crap.
Chapter one felt like review because I had just heard many of the stories on the cd I had been listening to (your ys seminar). I resonate with the numbers trap. I spent my first two years of college at a place called Word of Life. While there I was on a ministry team that went to NYC for street evangelism. Each night we would come back to the church we were staying in and have to give an account of how many we "saved". I remember sheepishly holding up one finger while others were asking what to do if they had more than ten. I wasn't even sure if the guy I talked to really knew what he was getting himself into. It was a horrible week, and I never really recovered from that experience. I think that is a good thing though, because it taught me to begin looking at the whole transaction mentality in a different light. I wrote a little sidebar for YWJ a few years back trying to voice some of my struggle with the whole idea of the way we view numbers.
Chapter 2. I've really been struggling with our usual response to kids walking away from the church, ie. "pump in more fun". When I see the kids on the x-box and the crowd gathered around the ps2 watching someone wail out the classics on guitar hero I have to ask myself if I have given way to the idea that we need to make church fun in order to interest kids, and I wonder if it's considered "gimmickry". That thought haunted me this past week.
Loved the history of Christianity in four easy steps. A book I recently read called Total Truth (Nancy Pearcy) gives an incredible background for the development of evangelicalism in America. It was eye opening for me, much like I assume D.G. Harts work has been for you. The idea that a passion for evangelism is central to the DNA of evangelicalism is the very thing that has, over the years, led me to believe I'm not a very good evangelical. And, along with that I've carried a fair amount of guilt about not being a very good Christ follower (epitomized in my NYC outreach trip). I've carried a fear of letting go of the sense of urgency to "get people saved". I believe it's important for people to acknowledge Christ but I just don't see it happening in the systematized way that has been presented to me most of my life.
Growing up my dad was a volunteer youth pastor at a little country church. I remember going to youth rallies before I was even a "youth" and hearing compelling messages of "turn or burn". I always prayed the prayer and I always meant it... I thought. But each time I prayed again because there was that question in my mind, "did I really mean it last time?" I felt that I obviously hadn't, because I was still sinning. This process continued for many years, even on into college. As a result, I've been saved hundreds of times. One of the biggest things I've learned is that the easiest way to put a question in someone's mind about their salvation is to make it about them. I don't know when I became a Christian, sometimes I think it wasn't until I finally stopped trying to mean it and just let Jesus mean it for me. It's harder to lead people toward that though, and really know that you've gotten them there. Maybe it's not even about getting people there as much as being with them where they are. "Allowing the transformation to come by the Holy Spirit" leaves us out of control, and therefore uncomfortable.
About problems with evangelical ym: Lack of tradition. The reason I named my blog station six is because I couldn't believe that I could get a BA in Bible without ever hearing about the stations of the cross. On top of that, I was surprised to find that station six is the station that protestants typically leave out (veronica wiping Jesus' face) because it's only "tradition". I wish someone would have at least told me about it and let me decide if it might be meaningful.
About age segregation. I remember reading something along these lines in Mark Yaconelli's book. One of the problems I see is that adults want to hire someone to do what they are unwilling to do, that is, model Christian spirituality to teens. I realize this is a generalization but we frequently find it difficult to even get adults to volunteer in youth ministry. As you said, adults are looking for someone "to run activity-driven programs to entertain the young people and keep them busy, distracted, and out of trouble." My thought was that maybe that's because many adults view church the same way. Its entertainment that keeps them busy and makes them feel good about themselves. If that's the case it's no wonder they won't volunteer. They aren't qualified to lead kids anywhere, they just want them to have the entertainment experience and to stay, as Yaconelli says, "nice-n-safe".
At first I wasn't sure if I understood (or agreed with) Volf on the point "it should not be until they encounter the church gathered" until they come to our churches "that non-Christians sense something is different about followers of Jesus." (p.39) I've always held the idea that people ought to see something different in me alone (maybe that's the hyper individualistic attitude of the evangelical surfacing). So, Volf's perspective put me off at first, and then I tried to look at it differently, with an emphasis on the community. If it's true that the Christian life was meant to be lived in community, then outsiders (non-Christians outside the community) wouldn't be able to understand what is different about an individual Christian without viewing us in our community.
That's about it for now. I'll shoot you another note after the next few chapters.
Joe
Mike,
I'm glad my thoughts are helpful or interesting or whatever they are. thanks for the encouragement.
So, here are more thoughts. Again this is pretty long, so either the book is really thought provoking or I am really long winded.
Chapter 3: You mentioned quantum physics. I am wondering if you have ever seen the film, What The Bleep Do We Know!?. It came out in '05. It's a little different, but explores some of the things going on in that realm. Definitely worth checking out if you haven't seen it. On a similar note, have you ever heard of or read the work of Dr. Masaru Emoto? There is a segment in What The Bleep that introduces his work with "the hidden messages in water". Again, pretty mind blowing stuff.
p. 44- The convergence of generational fronts: I am concerned about the educational patterns of youth workers. If we missed the transition from gen-x to millennial are we also missing a new transition right now? How do we begin to gain a better view of the horizon where culture and ministry meet in order to better anticipate these turbulent changes in the future? Are the current YM students in universities getting an education that won't suit the ministries they will walk into 4 years from now? I know my ym education 10 years ago was severely lacking. I was totally unprepared. I'm really interested in helping youth workers who are joining the ranks but I have a hard time staying on top of all the changes myself. How do we detect the shifts and train workers accordingly?
Knight's words on domestication of God's transcendence seem to introduce the first step in the death of discipleship. Chapter 4 goes deeper by highlighting other symptoms like "the need to isolate teenagers", and making church about commercialization ("materialism, self-indulgence"). It seems as though we tend to want to make church about us. The message teens are often getting is a kind of spiritual commercial. The church is another advertisement like all the others they are bombarded with every day. People are both products and consumers in church, and the whole process is summarized with the classic sports analogy of "winning" converts. It's about the game. Ug.
The whole lack of discipleship (both in the "radical Jesus following" sense and in the "helping converts live out their faith" sense) within Christianity today has been something that has bothered me since my first days in college. I've got a few disappointing stories that I've carried around basically as a model of what not to do. My negative experiences drive me to be present with kids who are seeking direction for a deeper connection with God, looking for help in living out their faith, or seeking encouragement to step into the mystery of full surrender to Him.
p. 50 hit me pretty hard when you spoke of willingness to let God have your kids. I've recently gone through a time of listening to God simply say, "Let go." God has a way of using few words to say a lot. I've spent a lot of time reflecting on what that might mean and one of the ways was with my kids. It's a good reminder to think of how difficult it is
for us (as pastors) to let go, when we are talking to other parents about their need to do the same.
You may not want to know this but I think there is a typo on page 53. Top line. "what is means". You probably already knew that though.
p. 54 has Robert Webbers story of a conference presenter who spoke of a focus shift from programming to prayer and bible study, and the result was "no room for all the kids." It seems like no matter what we do it has to come back to the measure of numbers. Would it still have been a great story if he'd have said, "we went from 50 to 5"? Would it still have seemed like God's will if the doors weren't busting open. Would he have still told that story? Who really knows? My concern is that presence centered ministry doesn't become the next program. It's a pretty large band wagon already and I'm guessing it will only get bigger with stories like that. I fear for the guy who decides to make that shift for the sake of mimicking those numbers instead of the sake of mimicking a life of listening to God's personal instructions. Maybe the real application in that story is to listen to what God tells you and if you aren't listening then it doesn't matter if you are running programs or bible studies, or a circus.
All that is related to something you say in chapter 5. "Young people need youth workers who have God (rather than youth ministry) first and foremost in view."
"Learn to be at peace, and thousands all around you will be saved." (I'm glad it's worded this way. I think a lot of people read it like this, "Learn to be at peace, so that thousands all around you will be saved."
Speaking of listening - "they want compassionate listening" - isn't it ironic that we often want them to just sit and listen to our passionate speaking.
I'm in a unique position because I teach at a Christian high school. I have opportunity every day to meet with 130 students. I have free reign to teach anything I want. I get to design the curriculum. I am challenged by the words in the middle of p. 66. I try hard not to train technicians or fill their heads with more "evidence" but I also have a hard time figuring out how to actually do otherwise. Is there a place for teaching kids where we got the bible from and why it's a reliable source? Any suggestions would be welcomed here.
Thanks for listening to my ramblings,
joe
Mike,
I haven't read too much on multiple intelligence or learning styles. Just Working with Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman. Did you have some authors in mind? Went to a seminar on brain development last spring. It was fascinating. Would love to learn more. I too often catch myself often reverting back to the old ways of "BM" (behavioral modification). It's definitely a process digging yourself out of that.
Ok, here's Round 3: Chapters 6-8
Chapter 6 - I've heard a lot about Taize. Would love to go experience it sometime. I loved this quote. "They didn't pressure the young people to make particular decisions. They focused on leading them into the presence of God, and exposing them to Scripture, creating space for them to listen to the Holy Spirit and nurturing prayer." I really want that to be what I'm all about as I teach kids.
"In presence centered youth ministry, we trust the spirit." I know that I tend to lean heavily on my training and forget the power and presence of the spirit. Periodically I'll show Rob Bell's Nooma videos in class. I always preface it with some comments about the meaning of the word Pneuma and how I want them to spend the hour particularly aware of God's spirit presence with us. One time I showed the Nooma "Noise" and then we sat in silence for 30 minutes. Afterward I had a student come up to me and say it was one of his top five spiritual experiences. Since then I try to remind myself that God can work even when I keep my mouth shut (and sometimes that works better).
p. 82 "we're consistently evaluated in ways that pressure us to take results into our own hands." And later, p.84 "I'm often tempted to take the spiritual development of a young person into my own hands." Man, do I ever feel this way and I'm not even sure the pressure is coming from the outside. Sometimes I feel as though I am putting that pressure on myself, thinking that if I was doing a better job of teaching these kids that more of them would be living their lives differently. My context is different because on top of being a youth pastor, I see kids every day as a bible teacher. Some youth pastors would probably be surprised to see their "angel" students in a school context. But that's also the beauty of what I get to do, loving kids who know that I've seen them at their low points as well as their high points.
I left a youth ministry post once because I felt the pressure for results that I couldn't produce. Everyone was pretty much blown away when I resigned. Looking back now I realize that was likely a mixture of self-imposed pressure and indirect parental pressure. See, when I interviewed there the search committee (comprised of parents) drilled me about different ways I was going to reach out to the community and draw kids in for evangelism. I had great answers but had trouble following through with it. My best attempts at outreach events were failures (in my eyes). Nothing turned out the way I had painted the picture in that interview. Eventually I felt that frustration deeply and it led me to quit trying and leave.
Looking back I also realize that I had a great ministry with a few kids at that church who really loved me and wanted to grow spiritually. I was too caught up in expectations to really care about them the way I should have. I think there are a lot of YP's out there going through this same kid of cycle. It's a shame.
p.83 "combinations of wind" - I loved this comparison with wind and ways we encounter God. My brother once told me, after learning of the incredible number of varieties of beetles in the world, "God is a variety junkie." I think that applies here.
p. 86 "Be faithful when God assigns a young person to you, have faith when God chooses someone else, and ask God for wisdom to know the difference between the two." This could be a prayer for a yp recovery group. I like to think I know the kids I best connect with and am purposeful in pursuing deeper relationships with them. I'm wrong a lot. It's easy to overlook some kids. I don't think we do it on purpose but taking the time to pray over the relationships we have would be a great practice.
p. 87 Sacred Spaces - for a couple of years now I've been meeting guys at the Bob Evans a few miles from my house. It has been a sacred space for me. I've had some powerful conversations and transformational moments there. I know what you mean when you say, "remembering the location brings back memories of great spiritual impact." I always look over at Bob Evans when I drive by and think of the great experiences I've had there and wonder about the next ones.
About a year ago they sold the building and built a new Bob Evans across the street. Now I go there. It's still sacred. In fact, they built a Starbucks in the old building and I've had some great meetings there with some of the guys that I mentor. I guess sacred space stays sacred.
p. 91 "Water, Fire, and Wind" - I am totally stealing this idea sometime. Very cool.
p. 94 "developing a prayer room" - In my classroom I have a large 3 ring binder called "Libre ex Votum" (Book of Prayers). I've encouraged students over the past 4 years to be placing their written prayers and artwork inside the binder as a kind of written record of what we have called out to God for. It's pretty cool to see kids come in after school and randomly pick it up and start reading the prayers of their peers. It's pretty intense to look through. I'm always surprised how raw and authentic kids can be when given the right opportunity.
p. 96 "simply the latest gimmicks unless you teach the symbolism and theology behind them." Translation: better do your homework. Speaking as a guy who probably has way too much on his plate, I can say that this is a frustration point. I don't believe all yp's out there are just looking for a gimmick (most probably are not) but the brutal truth is we're often too busy to take the time to do our homework on ancient spiritual practices. Reading your book may make some feel prepared enough to dive in and re-structure what they are doing. That might not be the best course of action. You've done a great job of reminding readers not to teach anything they aren't willing to investigate and practice on their own. "Only consider introducing these practices to your youth when you have used them and understand them enough to explain them." (p.137) That's great advice. I hope readers listen.
"fire" - I use Acts 2 to teach kids about fire and the presence of the Holy Spirit. I try to remind them of this any time we do anything with candles.
p. 97 "a few simple instructions about meditating on scripture" We try to implement things like Lexio, and imaginative prayer into our weekly youth meetings at the church. We do it without calling it anything. For example, I recently led the group through an Ignatian Examen exercise but never used those words to describe it. I just walked them through it.
Chapter 7
Here's the line from chapter 7 that is still echoing in my head - A.W. Tozer: "I have observed that our familiar impromptu service, planned by the leader twenty minutes before, often tends to follow a ragged and tired order almost as standardized as the Mass." This might be a bit stereotypical. I know plenty of guys (myself included) who often spend hours on our talks and planning our services. Tozer seems to make the point that if we're going to just have a sloppy liturgy, why not pick a more beautiful one. It's a good point but I'd like to take the application further. Let' begin reaching back and grabbing an ancient liturgy while also reaching forward and grabbing media and hands on elements that are fitting for the kids we are seeking to guide. As a result we'll create creating new beautiful liturgies.
Here's a truth that I've found. At Westwinds we've talked a lot about re-imagining youth ministry. We're constantly trying to come up with new, better, and different ways of doing what we do. Many times we've ended up just rearranging the standard order. That's frustrating, but I think it's where a lot of people end up. Break almost any service down and what do you have?, announcements, worship music, message/talk, maybe a game or something. We get creative sometimes but it often ends up looking very similar. This year we've made some more significant changes. I'm still not sure it's "new" but we're experimenting. I'll let you know how it works out.
p. 105 "symbol free churches" funny, our church is symbol laden. It's almost ridiculous. Even the floor tiles are symbolic. There are actually signs as you walk in explaining all the symbolism that you will encounter.
Chapter 8
p. 125 Teaching the Chocti !This is almost exactly what happened to me. I read about them, got one, started practicing it, told some kids about it, and their first response, "Isn't that catholic?"
p. 128 the orant. Cool. I never knew what this was called.
p. 128 "bowing the head" In the Philokalia someone talks about looking at the heart as a way of centering your focus on praying the Jesus prayer in your heart. As I read I immediately tried it and - I was bowing my head. It brought new meaning to this mundane practice. Pretty cool.
p. 135 "youthfront staff gathers everyday for midday prayer." Mike, I can't tell you how cool this is. How sweet to be in an environment of community prayer like that. I recently heard that The International Justice Mission does the same thing every day. Not sure why but it really gets me excited when I imagine what those times must be like.
I'm on the home stretch now. It's been fun processing the book in this way. Your desire to hear my thoughts has made me engage the book at a deeper level than I probably would have otherwise. Thanks again for this opportunity. I'm still brainstorming for a way to hang out some time. I do have the summer off from teaching but have lot's of ym stuff going on then too. Let me know if you are ever up this way (Michigan) doing training or whatever.
Peace,
joe
Mike,
Just finished your book this morning. Here are my final reflections.
Chapter 9
It's definitely a difficult task to hold cognitive reading in one hand and devotional reading in the other. I can testify that most of my experience and evangelical education has leaned heavily on the cognitive, and even encouraged cognitive devotional reading.
p.140 "I'm concerned by the overly confident attitude that we can incontrovertibly get the 'objective' original meaning of the text with absolute certainty, and yet we must try to understand what the original intent was and is."
- This is tricky. If we can't know the original meaning of a text then we have to ask ourselves what difference will it make if we try? Understanding what the original intent "is" is an unattainable goal since the nature of something that "is" is absolute and absolute conclusions have previously been ruled out. Where do we go from here? This is a serious tension I deal with.
looked up the Jesus miniseries on amazon. Wow. It got some pretty negative reviews. You never really know who's writing that stuff though. I'm curious about what aspects of the film were particularly appealing to you. I have not seen it.
p. 149. Loved the idea you have implemented in your missional leadership group in regards to "dwelling in the word"
Chapter 10
p. 152 you returned to the smooth stones picture and I really started grabbing on to it at this point. I really like that illustration as a way of understanding our rule of life.
p. 156 simplicity. One of our pastors talked about a year ago on creating white space. It was the idea that we intentionally leave space in our calendar and our checkbook. Leaving the space allows for us to engage God and gives us the room to respond to his promptings. It was a powerful message for me, and a reminder to simplify so that God has more room to move.
Love this stuff on rule of life. I haven't ever written out a rule. I'm definitely at a place right now where I am ready to move toward this. I'm meeting with some guys tomorrow night and plan on discussing this with them so that we may begin together.
Retreat. I just went to my boss a few weeks ago and requested additional personal days for next year for the purpose of personal renewal. They agreed! I always like it when I make a move and then its reaffirmed by a book or a message.
Focal points. This is a cool thought. There's lots of room for creativity here. These simple things can be very powerful. I need to implement this idea.
p. 171 Confession. "Within the evangelical tradition, confession usually occurs between two friends" As I was growing up confession was always something people talked about as being "between you and God". After all, confessing to someone else is catholic, right? Wrong. In more recent years I've been intentional about confessing to my spiritual director. I've found it to be much more spiritually beneficial than keeping things "between me and God." There is something about sitting across from another human being and telling them your darkest side and having them grab your hand and say, "I love you, man."
Networking. We've really experienced some negatives in this realm here in Jackson. I can think of three youth pastors here that have left their posts in the last four months.
Chapter 11
I loved the Mike Yaconelli quote on p. 180. I didn't know mike but from an outsiders perspective that really seems like how he lived his life.
Matthew 11:28-30 as the Heart of pcym. This is a challenging thought and a good reminder. I have to sit and look at the youth ministries that I am involved in and ask myself, am I bringing rest or creating burdens.
Sitting at the feet of Jesus - Several years ago I was reading the Gospels intently looking for the secrets of Jesus teaching ministry. I took on the task of sitting at Jesus feet to learn his ways and realized that was actually the key to becoming like him. still working on it. : )
Conclusion. I led a contemplative retreat for our youth ministry in December '05. We used the same passage for imaginative prayer. Here's my post from that event. http://stationsix.blogspot.com/2005/12/what-do-you-want.html
Epilogue. What can I say?, that is an awesome story.
Well, that's about it. I enjoyed the book. I was already familiar with many of the practices in the 2nd half of the book so I probably found the 1st have more meaningful for that reason. I do hope my comments were a good glimpse into how your book influenced and provoked my thoughts. And I hope that was helpful for you in some way. Looking forward to your next project (heard you were working on another book on the Studio 47 podcast).
I'll look forward to any further interaction with you that you would be interested in. Let me know if I can serve you in any way.
God's peace,
joe
I noticed that while my book Presence Centered Youth Ministry is on Amazon's top 100 most popular/best selling list of Youth Ministry Books at #99, it is #54 on the top 100 list for Pastoral Theology. What does that mean? I'm not sure but I think I like it.
If you want to read Presence-Centered Youth Ministry: Guiding Students Into Spiritual Formation but don't want to buy the book here is a list of 100 Libraries that carry the book.
There is a new review for Presence Centered Youth Ministry posted on Pastor Book Shelf. At the bottom of the review are links to several more reviews submitted by pastors, youth pastors and church leaders.
The Uniting Church in Australia web site has reviewed Presence Centered Youth Ministry.
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